Posts by Eyes Open

44

A revelation for me: the revelation of Revelation

by Eyes Open in

i was reading the thread about revelation, and some research i did on the beginning of chapter 10 of the apocalyptic book came to mind, so i thought i'd share it here in case anyone's interested.. as an ignorant jehovah's witness, i had no idea of the real literary structure of the book.

the watchtower society makes out the mighty angel in 10:1 who stands on the sea and earth is jesus christ, and that the contents of the little scroll he hands john is a prophecy to be fulfilled after 1914. to grasp the simple truth that the strong angel in 10:1 is the angel alluded to in 1:1, and that the little scroll is actually the scroll which has been progressively unsealed in 6:1 to 8:1, was very satisfying.

it describes the revelation being given to john, which contains the main content of the prophetic work!.

Eyes Open

Hi JC,

Thanks for the post. So you won't be reading those books? In that case I will bow out of discussing the topic with you further because, as I said previously, unless you have given the consensus of the modern scholarly view substantial consideration there's no point in us talking at cross purposes.

My view is that the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation were designed for the audiences to which they were originally directed, the Jews in Greece and the Christians in Rome, and that their prophecies ultimately proved to be failures. Many have used various means to interject some modern-day, urgent message into these works (e.g. the day for a year principle, which I don't believe is stated anywhere in the bible as applying to Daniel). As an ex-JW, I've had my fill of convoluted eschatologies. Every single one of these attempts has failed.

I believe all current and future attempts will also fail.

34

After fading, can you get away with DF'able sins?

by inkling in

i ask this because a person i know who had a rather short fade.

is now living a... lets just say a distinctly worldly life, and.

the elders are simply looking the other way.

Eyes Open

The elders didn't go after a person in my old congregation in the UK. At least some of us knew the person was living in sin with a partner. The person hadn't been going to meetings. An elder from a neighbouring congregation also gave the strong impression that they don't chase people when he was asked. "Oo, no... blah, blah...". So depending on the elders (and perhaps how well you got on with them when you were there?) and situation, yes.

9

God Will Kill You If You Don't.......Quotes Needed

by Poztate in

a close friend recently told me that the door to door ministry was a "voluntary work" that they only did out of love and concern for the people.. i said that i thought was a required part of being a jehovah's witness and if they did not witness to people the old rule was that they were blood guilty and gawd would kill them at "a".

i wouldn't mind a quote or two as to the facts.

i have been out for over 25 years but i still think that is the opinion.

Eyes Open

Doublethink.

22

Temple construction: a question for Leolaia and the board's scholars

by behemot in

a book that i'm reading (j. alberto soggin, "israel in the biblical period.

institutions, festivals, ceremonies, rituals", 2001), talking about the jerusalem temple, states that "certain authors have seen in the dates of the beginning and of the end of the construction works elements of the yearly cicle of the cananean ba'al", but no bibliographic reference is given supporting the statement.what does he refer to?

can someone point me to sources of information on this matter?thanks a lot.look forward to your replies.

Eyes Open

So DON'T comment on this comment.

May I enquire as to the consequences of my commenting on your comment on the Nathan Natas comment and my comment above? For example, will I face divine wrath at the hands of you and your heavenly father or anything major like that?

22

Temple construction: a question for Leolaia and the board's scholars

by behemot in

a book that i'm reading (j. alberto soggin, "israel in the biblical period.

institutions, festivals, ceremonies, rituals", 2001), talking about the jerusalem temple, states that "certain authors have seen in the dates of the beginning and of the end of the construction works elements of the yearly cicle of the cananean ba'al", but no bibliographic reference is given supporting the statement.what does he refer to?

can someone point me to sources of information on this matter?thanks a lot.look forward to your replies.

Eyes Open

And thus another thread is hijacked by the messiah.

(If it wasn't so funny it would be annoying.)

32

Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect.

by gaiagirl in

jw
friends

jw's frequently say that the first human couple were "perfect" and would have lived forever until they gave up perfection by their disobedience.. however, closer reading of the genesis account shows that they were never perfect, instead, they were designed to grow old and die, just like the rest of the animals.

jehovah has adam name all the animals, but finds that none of the animals is suitable as a companion (wonder how this was determined)?.

jehovah clones a companion for adam, and tells them to not eat the fruit of a certain tree, or they will die "in that very day".

Eyes Open

Haven't considered the story like that before - will reread again sometime. Thanks.

8

Can you imagine OBVES and JCanon giving a sympsium talk? LOL

by tsar_robles in

.

at an assembly, that is... lmao.

Eyes Open

We'd have to go back to the week-long assembly style.

44

A revelation for me: the revelation of Revelation

by Eyes Open in

i was reading the thread about revelation, and some research i did on the beginning of chapter 10 of the apocalyptic book came to mind, so i thought i'd share it here in case anyone's interested.. as an ignorant jehovah's witness, i had no idea of the real literary structure of the book.

the watchtower society makes out the mighty angel in 10:1 who stands on the sea and earth is jesus christ, and that the contents of the little scroll he hands john is a prophecy to be fulfilled after 1914. to grasp the simple truth that the strong angel in 10:1 is the angel alluded to in 1:1, and that the little scroll is actually the scroll which has been progressively unsealed in 6:1 to 8:1, was very satisfying.

it describes the revelation being given to john, which contains the main content of the prophetic work!.

Eyes Open

JCanon:

I do believe you need a further explanation...

I have read your post. Will you be reading the books I suggested?

44

A revelation for me: the revelation of Revelation

by Eyes Open in

i was reading the thread about revelation, and some research i did on the beginning of chapter 10 of the apocalyptic book came to mind, so i thought i'd share it here in case anyone's interested.. as an ignorant jehovah's witness, i had no idea of the real literary structure of the book.

the watchtower society makes out the mighty angel in 10:1 who stands on the sea and earth is jesus christ, and that the contents of the little scroll he hands john is a prophecy to be fulfilled after 1914. to grasp the simple truth that the strong angel in 10:1 is the angel alluded to in 1:1, and that the little scroll is actually the scroll which has been progressively unsealed in 6:1 to 8:1, was very satisfying.

it describes the revelation being given to john, which contains the main content of the prophetic work!.

Eyes Open

Leolaia:

Ah, the joys of discovering actual exegesis when all you've encountered is arbitrary, irrelevant eisegesis ... Indeed, there was a cultural and social context for the book (i.e. as anti-Roman propaganda) that is explicable from its literary character....it is important in interpretation to try to understand how its earliest readers would have understood the book. And it really does make a lot more sense than it does when it is abused by those who read whatever they see fit into the book.

Yes! I would say that "joy" is not an overstatement. Light bulb moments that come as one sees how the symbols relate to very real entities and situations in Rome are truly momentous for a JW. Arbitrary - a word I found myself using again and again as I was trying to remove myself from the mental gutter. And your "more sense" sentence sums it up perfectly for me.

I've always found your posts to be interesting and nothing over than sensible. Have you had formal training in things like exegesis, or have you developed your knowledge through self study? How did you get into it?

J.Canon:

I have a challenge for you. Read, with an open mind, these three books in the following order:

How to Read the Bible: History, Prophecy, Literature - Why Modern Readers Need to Know the Difference, and What It Means for Faith Today by Steven L. McKenzie.

Daniel: With an Introduction to Apocalyptic Literature (Forms of the Old Testament Literature) by John, Joseph Collins

The Apocalypse (New Testament Message; A Biblical-Theological Commentary) by Adela, Yarbro Collins

When you have done so, and have given some real consideration to genre, textual criticism and history relevant to the time periods in which the literature was written, then post back here with your thoughts.

Until you have done so, it's not a topic about which we can have a constructive discussion.

44

A revelation for me: the revelation of Revelation

by Eyes Open in

i was reading the thread about revelation, and some research i did on the beginning of chapter 10 of the apocalyptic book came to mind, so i thought i'd share it here in case anyone's interested.. as an ignorant jehovah's witness, i had no idea of the real literary structure of the book.

the watchtower society makes out the mighty angel in 10:1 who stands on the sea and earth is jesus christ, and that the contents of the little scroll he hands john is a prophecy to be fulfilled after 1914. to grasp the simple truth that the strong angel in 10:1 is the angel alluded to in 1:1, and that the little scroll is actually the scroll which has been progressively unsealed in 6:1 to 8:1, was very satisfying.

it describes the revelation being given to john, which contains the main content of the prophetic work!.

Eyes Open

Revelation 22

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.